ONE of Keith Marshall's frustrations is that no skills minister ever stays in the job for more than a year or so.

Ironically, he sees it as a training job. 'Our career politicians see it as a stepping stone to a better ministerial position,' says the chief executive of SummitSkills.

He adds he has been in this job for four years and is on his third minister.

Given that an apprentice scheme takes three or four years, no minister will ever see the fruits of his work, good or bad. There is no instant fix. Ideas take time to get to fruition.

So does government listen? Yes, he says. But it's a qualified yes.
'The best we can do is chip away to get what we want.' And tell it like it is. For instance, Marshall and his team have been telling government many firms would prefer to take on mature trainees as well as teenagers.

'Firms would rather take on career changers or men from the armed forces because they do not have to worry about the motivation, and can get on with the training.'

However, until recently, there has been no funding for mature trainees.

'This is because large elements of this skills policy is actually a social policy to keep 16- and 17-year-olds off benefits.'

Firms could have a 16-year-old apprentice and government picks up the tab or they can have a mature student and pay for him themselves.

But this has changed. And it is in no small part because of the lobbying of SummitSkills.

Women are slightly different. The influences are pretty traditional and they tend to be steered away from 'dirty', hands-on jobs. 'It is in their mid-20s when they have the confidence to say: 'Being a plumber would give me the flexibility I need at this moment in my life.'

Marshall adds that perhaps it could be a case of dropping the kids off at school before going on to the job. But not only is there no funding for her, she perhaps loses benefits too, he adds.

SummitSkills has taken this case to government but, Marshall admits, the organisation has not had as much success as it would like. 'This is a complete disincentive.'

Marshall says his lobbying is about evolutionary change. Chipping away here and there to make things better. 'Most youngsters only have one chance of a career.'

Take government's 50% target for young people to go to university - Marshall is candid. 'Fifty per cent of young people will not benefit from going to university. Many would be far better served going into an apprenticeship.'

The target is a double-edged sword. It sends youngsters who will not benefit to university, and takes youngsters away from apprenticeships where they would, he adds. Especially when today apprenticeships could be a route to university. 'Do an apprenticeship now and a good employer will recognise those people who have the potential and send them to university later when they will benefit.'

This, Marshall agrees, will allow those who want to advance to do so at their own pace. And he adds, those who just want to be a plumber or an electrician can do just that.

So is the target of 50% university graduates wrong? Marshall suggests a system which turns out poor graduates when it could be making good apprentices is flawed.

Does he regret the demise of the secondary-modern school system, which helped to channel the more practical youngsters into an apprenticeship scheme?

Marshall describes the secondary modern system as 'fit for purpose' although many saw it as a class system. 'I think it was a great shame that the government didn't implement the Tomlinson report completely. I worked with Tomlinson on the apprenticeship group.'

Tomlinson wanted to do away with the academic/vocational divide. Education would have included some theoretical and some practical elements, and the individual put these together in a way which best suited him or her in terms of learning and career.

Someone who wanted to be, for instance, a design engineer might also do a workshop course on metalwork because it would give him an insight into the use of that material.

'The new diplomas which are to be introduced in September go some way towards this but not as far as I would have liked,' insists Marshall.
The diplomas will consist of practical and theoretical elements as well as exposure to the world of work. 'The spine running through each diploma is: English, maths and IT.'

The diplomas in which SummitSkills is involved is Construction and the Built Environment (brick-laying through to architecture and including plumbers and electricians) and Engineering.

'These were originally designed by employers for 14- to 19-year-olds so they are learning as well as preparing for the world of work.'

For instance, Construction and the Built Environment was designed by employers and modified by educationalists to give youngsters the best of both worlds.

So do I have to choose at 14 what I want to do? Marshall's answer is yes, but not irrevocably. For the first couple of years, the course work (English, maths and IT) is similar with only the practical different. If a youngster wished to switch, there would be some catching up to do but it would not be too hard.

'The way they are set up allows the youngster to switch between the practical elements and, indeed, switch from the more practical to the more theoretical courses until the age of 16.'

Marshall adds that, should someone decide after a practical course that he or she wishes to go to university, they can simply switch to a theoretical course to take the three A-levels needed. For now, he reckons, the O- and A-level examinations stay.

With the introduction of the 14- to 19-year-old diplomas, the minister had, says Marshall, a chance to revolutionise the secondary education system and get rid of the vocational and academic learning routes in one step. But it was not so. However, he believes: 'Gradually, O- and A-level examinations will fade and lose out to these new diplomas.'

And hopefully these diplomas will help the youngsters with their reading, writing and maths skills from the beginning so that colleges will have more time to spend on the practical skills apprentices need.

'For instance, the exercises which will be applied will be about real life.'

An apprentice is an investment, believes Marshall. But why should bosses spend time and money training an apprentice when they can have a fully qualified plumber or electrician or consulting engineer from eastern Europe?

Marshall insists many of them will go back to their home country when they have enough money. He remembers the TV series Aufwiedersehen Pet, when our bricklayers all went to Germany to find work. 'They are not in Germany now. Once the British economy picked up, they came back here, and I believe many of the Polish plumbers will go back when the Polish economy rises.'

The Olympics, in construction terms, is not a big deal. However, politically, it is hugely important and cannot be delivered late. But, Marshall insists, at full bore it is going to be less than 10% of the construction going on in London.

SummitSkills has been working with contractors to try to make them train local workers for the projects now so that they will be ready to play their full part when they are needed in three years' time.

'If we wait two years before we start to train them, then we are back to panic 'I need some plumbers from somewhere' measures.'

So are they? 'Not as much as they should be!' Marshall is candid about how these figures could be raised. 'You make it a requirement of every public procurement project.'

Both SummitSkills and ConstructionSkills have been pushing for the same thing.

And, adds Marshall, it is not just about the Olympics. There are huge buildings projects going on such as academies, hospitals, defence contracts. And, if a percentage of 'trainees' is built into the project tender, then everyone is starting from the same base.

'There is a good chance that government is moving to include a number of trainees in public procurement tenders but not in time for the Olympics.'

As well as finding the right calibre of apprentice, there is also the problem of dealing with the employers.
Marshall says that many employers are one- and two-man bands and taking on a trainee is a big step, given the bureaucracy and effort. So how do you get around this?

There has to be an answer for the big company and one for the one-man band. Sometimes it can be extra money. For the bigger firms, there must be other
incentives.
Employers need to improve skills, or they will go out of
business. If they do not begin to train their engineers on renewable technologies, then other firms, especially from the European mainland, will take the trade.

So how does SummitSkills become involved in this? 'We can spot the trends and let them know it is an issue and then put the infrastructure in place to deal with it.'

Marshall says it is SummitSkills' job to put the standard in place, and the qualifications in place through the colleges and their training courses. Then the organisation publicises the courses to the trade press and the employer organisations to do what is possible for the trade. But it is up to the employer to realise that it may be a five-day course, and that those who go on it will not be generating revenue. 'But when these engineers are qualified, then the firms can begin to bid for the projects.'

But Marshall wants businesses to realise the potential early. 'It is no good bosses saying to themselves 'we might as well send our engineers on the course because there is no work for them'.'